Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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This right here has always been the problem with Genesect, not just Speed control, which btw would still be somewhat of a thing even in the scenario of it lacking E-speed, Rock Polish and Shift Gear, since Scarf + STAB U-turn will always be a fantastic combo. Hell, I could even see it running Hone Claws + Flame Charge if you really wanted to try a Sweeper set. Considering the AMAZING move coverage it has, the Download boost making it even stronger and all of the sets it could run (Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Mixed Attacker with Life Orb or HDB etc.), it ain't hard to figure out why it would still be broken. Let's also remember that Bug/Steel is one of the best defensive typings out there, being weak only to Fire, which does increase Genesect's overall longevity to a certain extent, at least compared to your average fast offensive mon. Now, if only there was some kind of mechanic added in Gen 9 to get rid of this glaring weakness while also increasing your overall damage output... oh wait, there is! And if that wasn't enough of a buff, Genesect also has Techno Blast, which might as well be a stronger Tera Blast with potential STAB. But wait, let's assume you'd wanna run Tera Blast regardless... you guys do realize that Tera Blast would continuously change from Special to Physical and viceversa because of Download, right?
Yeah, Genesect is something that probably shouldn't be considered for a test unless tera goes if it comes back, because tera Genesect sounds like hell to deal with.

If tera does go though i'm not opposed to a Genesect suspect even if it ends up being a bit too much even with the powercreep. As long as tera is allowed letting Genesect in here even for a little bit sounds like a bad idea.

If tera ends up going though Genesect should be tested even if it ends up being broken yet again considering the powercreep we have right now
 
Nah clearly we shouldn't stabilize the tier or discuss lower tier or lesser seen mons with genuine niches, no we should go in complete circles and only discuss unbanning ubers because why not lmfao man this discussion thread is awesome!
Tbf, the council said we can’t do anything (or it makes zero sense to) because the thing suspected will get unbanned, so we are talking about unbanning shit because shit already is getting unbanned!!!!
 
The darkrai unban players still haven't seemed to grasp that the supposed positive qualities darkrai brings weavile brings to the table and more with actual ice stab and an equal speed tier this unban darkrai garbage is complete bull honestly every time the thread brings up unbanning an uber its complete bullshit. Stop talking about fucking darkrai and move on to the actual metagame for once
Why are we trying to push Darkrai to OU?
I understand this knee jerk reaction given this thread's love for going on several page tangents about dropping random things from Ubers but there's no better time than now to discuss whether Darkrai fits into OU or not given that OUPL is featuring it in the suspect games this week and next. It's a small sample size but natural that people will want to analyze the data presented to us and form hypotheses.

We've only seen a couple games, wherein darkrai was highly prepared for in each, but all the counterplay applied was quite reasonable within the tier and no otherwise-unviable sets or picks were present. Given that we're already doing a soft reset and also gaining what seems to be a number of very powerful threats, including the Tapus who are sure to redefine the power level and environment of the tier, the raw numbers, degree of theorymon explored, and what little we've seen so far, it makes a lot of sense to drop it with the rest of DLC2 and put it on a slate (and potentially a long one) if it presents an issue.
 
Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.

Our other favorite Bug/Steel.

That's right, we should do the traditional thing and test Genesect. Unlike past tests, in SV Genesect is actually losing something - reports are that it no longer has Shift Gear, Rock Polish, or Extreme Speed. If true, that means its speed control is crippled; it can still run scarf sets, but a pivot that lacks Spikes immunity would really prefer HDB, and if you're not pivoting then Booster Valiant does the job better.

As a pivot, it's really just better Scizor, but a better version of a B- mon isn't clearly problematic. As a mixed attacker is stuffers from a poor STAB combo, but does have a solid speed tier and solid enough defenses (especially with a great defensive typing), which again isn't obviously overwhelming.

Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.
I'm gonna be so mad if genesect loses his speed control bc he was a perfect slot in on my awful sneasler ubers team.

that doesnt exist even with Scizor and Genesect out of the picture lmao
Forretress is definitely one of the spinners in the game.
 
What are people liking the most in terms of web-abusing breakers and sweepers?

I want Iron Hands to put in work, but he feels vulnerable to burn and just isn't fast enough to take advantage of mons being at -1 speed. Trailblaze Ursa doesn't have the staying power I want. Slither wing has been on my list to try as a breaker but I haven't gotten around to it. Has anyone seen success with Haxorus?

Hoopa-U is a terror when mixed, but I haven't used it much.

On the special side, Manaphy has been stellar, Iron Moth is great but wants 5 moves, and specs Dhengo catches people off guard when 2HKOs become OHKOs.

What are people finding success with?
 
Stayed in the tier on the same margin that Gliscor was banned on. What's your point here?
Kingambit is the exception to the efficacy of this process. Kingambit is one of a few pokemon that should have been survey banned from both voting pools instead of just qualified players.
"same margin", if the council decided that margin was ok the result of the suspect and survey must be accepted even if gambit wasn't banned for a single vote

Anyone who is pro gambit is incorrect regardless of skill level. It's genuinely ridiculous how you in particular keep beating the "GOOD PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS CORRECT AT ALL TIMES"
thinking someone is pro or against a pokemon makes me laugh

what people want is stop asking again and again tiering action bypassing the survey system which turned to be so effective; in just 2 months ou is so much more playable because both council and players put a lot of effort working together

because we have and it's fucking up team diversity.
nothing to do with gambit, even without him tusk would be the only spinner in the tier, cind would be the only way to punish screen users in every situation and so on

90% of pokemons in this gen are bad or uber material, we must play with that 10%;

idgaf of the remaining post
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D Guys did you uuh try adapting??
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:

6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to learn the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
 
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Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:


6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:


7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
I mean.... Iron Bundle's fast Encore would be high key nice and it doesn't have a boosting move that other threats could use to spiral out of control. Maybe you're onto something here...
 
Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:

6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
Something something the tier is prepared for fast, strong water attackers now something something.

I could maybe see Palafin being tested back down, given that its bulk and speed are very good, but not amazing, and the tier is very well prepared for powerful water type attacks right now. I'm not enough of a madlad to advocate for it, but I wouldn't accuse the council of being drunk if they decided on it.

Most of that counterplay to strong waters gets folded over by STAB Freeze Dry, though. Let Iron Bundle be our eternal Christmas present to Ubers.
 
Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:

6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
Perhaps my post concluded on a note that favored darkrai a bit much given the tiny sample size, however, specifically taking the tapus (which up to 2-3 of will be extremely powerful with Tera and 3 are likely to drastically change the metagame) into account, I genuinely believe OU will be something completely different come December 14 - my opinion overall given that a lot of rapid tiering action is already possible and a "soft reset" is all but confirmed is that adding Darkrai into that pot is something I just don't see much harm in. It's very possible you're right (and you often are) - I have confidence the council will do what's necessary if you are. It is possible we see another "Magearna banned, Chien Pao remains" and it probably will be annoying to wait through that period if it exists however so I get where you're coming from in that regard
 
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Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D Guys did you uuh try adapting??
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:

6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-139 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
(Highest roll for Darkrai is still lower than lowest roll for Iron Bundle).
Fact that Iron Bundle has Quark Drive and Darkrai doesn't is probably the biggest difference. Slap on Booster Energy and Iron Bundle outspeed the even fast Scarfers while also having the freedom to switch its moves around. Switching between moves that have perfect coverage. If Darkrai wants to outspeed the entire metagame like that, it has to use Choice Scarf and has to decide on what coverage move it has to use as well. Doing so also makes Darkrai much easier to wall too, since it's firepower isn't impressive.
 
Since we’re talking about bringing Pokémon down. We should Test Marshadow as well. Haven’t seen him in OU in awhile.


But seriously all this talk about banning and unbanning mons is extremely Theorymoning we have no idea what kind of legends will be in the game, nor do we have any idea what the move tutors will be let alone the 8-10 new Pokémon that we know all have high OU potential. I get it’s fun and we’re in a lame duck period but drawing lines in the sand when we don’t know what the tide will bring is just a waste of time.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-139 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
(Highest roll for Darkrai is still lower than lowest roll for Iron Bundle).
Fact that Iron Bundle has Quark Drive and Darkrai doesn't is probably the biggest difference. Slap on Booster Energy and Iron Bundle outspeed the even fast Scarfers while also having the freedom to switch its moves around. Switching between moves that have perfect coverage. If Darkrai wants to outspeed the entire metagame like that, it has to use Choice Scarf and has to decide on what coverage move it has to use as well. Doing so also makes Darkrai much easier to wall too, since it's firepower isn't impressive.
Hydro Pump only has 8 pp, is 80 % accurate, and is letting in one of the most dangerous mons in the meta for free (Waterpon). Meanwhile Dark Pulse has 24 pp, no immunities, and a 20% flinch chance, I think the difference in STAB moves here is smaller than you're letting on.

I would also like to offer you a hot take: Booster Energy on Iron Bundle wouldn't be that good. The reason that the best Booster Energy mons are the best is because they have the set up/snowball capabilities to make the 1-time use worth it. From most potent to least: Iron Valiant can Calm Mind or SD, Iron Moth's Fiery Dance (allegedly) boosts Special Attack, Great Tusk can Bulk Up, and Walking Wake can Agility. These are the 4 most popular and common Booster Energy users, for good reason. They can close out games in the right conditions, and are not purely just speed control/utility like less popular Booster Energy users (think Iron Jugulis, Iron Treads). The speed boosting Iron Bundle set you describe is closer to the latter group, not the former, as Iron Bundle cant really set up.

In the first place, this comparison does not have to be perfectly accurate (comparisons rarely are) to illustrate a point. That point being that the arguments being used to defend darkrai are extremely silly.
 
As far as Darkrai goes, I'm not a fan of it being let loose in OU.

One of the arguments is that it has to use a weak STAB move in dark pulse, but dark pulse isn't even that bad of a move. Sure, 80 base power is limiting, but that 20% chance to flinch really is something that can go from something you can just scrape by against to getting utterly beaten up based on a 1 in 5 chance, odds which are.. honestly, pretty scary.

If you think about it, one of the arguments as to why Iron Bundle was balanced in OU was that it had no access to accurate, reliable water STAB (only move was hydro pump, which you know how that move goes; 20% chance to miss). If that 20% chance has enough merit for it to be discussed as a possible characteristic that balances it, the flinch chance should be considered as well.

Besides the flinch chance, let's look at some movesets. Here, we have nasty plot, of course, and all the coverage moves of... let's see... dark pulse as STAB, alright, that's fine... focus blast can be scary, but it is also has the low accuracy, sure... inhales thunderbolt/thunder ice beam/blizzard psychic psyshock sludge bomb shadow ball.

Alright, what in OU... walls it?

Uhh, Ting-Lu??? Better hope you dodge every focus blast on the switch.

What else...

Tera dark Blissey, sure.

Tera dark Clodsire...? 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Dark Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean, sure? What if Darkrai were to, I don't know, run a life orb? It has enough speed and power to run a life orb, at least in my opinion.

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Dark Clodsire: 252-299 (54.4 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You better pray it misses. Yes, you are technically favored in this interaction, but a 51% chance to win this interaction ONCE is not good odds...

(What if it taunts you btw, you literally got little defensive counterplay then lmfao)

Defensively, you would probably need to stack multiple answers for each of the sets or use an incredibly niche mon, something that is really hard to do in a metagame already like this as well as become a LOT harder to do in a metagame with a ton of extra power by DLC.

Alright, what about offensively? It's not like Hoopa-Unbound is in Ubers, despite the fact that there are basically no good switchins. Let's see here...

Let's go we got Dragapult!!!! 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What if it were scarf though (not even a bad option because it has trick and strong options), then what???

Well, booster Valiant would check it (beware of scarf).

Zamazenta? Sure (guess what, beware of scarf).

Now what?

Basically, my point is that nothing beats all sets, and even if you wanted to beat MOST sets, you would need to rely on solely offensive counterplay, which is not a horrible thing, as Hoopa-Unbound has demonstrated that you don't need to wall something for it to be manageable, but your offensive counterplay boils down to 3 mons, one of which is a one-and-done solution, and all of them have to be scared of scarf sets.

I just want to clarify that it's okay if you don't beat all sets, but it isn't okay in a metagame where teambuilding already feels really crammed; it genuinely is hard to build around all of the different threats, and not only do you have to build around the current threats and the new threats, but now this one?

Darkrai just has a ton of good moves to use as well, such as the previously mentioned taunt and trick; as the metagame develops, I don't think we would adapt, rather Darkrai would adapt to the metagame.
 
The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-139 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
(Highest roll for Darkrai is still lower than lowest roll for Iron Bundle).
Fact that Iron Bundle has Quark Drive and Darkrai doesn't is probably the biggest difference. Slap on Booster Energy and Iron Bundle outspeed the even fast Scarfers while also having the freedom to switch its moves around. Switching between moves that have perfect coverage. If Darkrai wants to outspeed the entire metagame like that, it has to use Choice Scarf and has to decide on what coverage move it has to use as well. Doing so also makes Darkrai much easier to wall too, since it's firepower isn't impressive.
Darkrai is a sweeper and wallbreaker, not dedicated speed control. Iron Bundle can't match the power of Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Darkrai isn't reliant on 70% accurate water move for damage. Tera Poison Darkrai can 2hko virtually all dedicated walls, and is almost impossible to take down without revenge killing with priority (which applies to Iron Bundle too, btw)

Here are some calcs for

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 204-242 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO

Except, Darkrai can also flinch opponent with Dark Pulse. Which means that accounting for lower damage and poor accuracy, Bundle might fail to KO Blissey even after 5th move. While Darkai has potential to get close to 2hko range with just 1 flinch. And Blissey is the bulkiest neutral wall for Darkrai in the whole game (this is without accounting Tera for Darkrai)
 
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Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:

1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed :blobthumbsup:

3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate :blobthumbsup:

5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D Guys did you uuh try adapting??
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera :blobthumbsup:

6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle :blobthumbsup:

7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU :blobthumbsup:
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal :blobthumbsup:

I can count on at least 30% of you to learn the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
What are your thoughts on the replays that Nines provided that started this whole Darkrai debate?

Having some in-game evidence on a mon’s performance generally helps support unbanning something than calcs.

Off the replays, it is a good sign when something is performing well but not completely warping the game flow like Chien-Pao or Gliscor did. However I will remain skeptical til the council decides Darkrai gets retested in DLC2. Look at the power creep rn. Lando-T is barely holding on to OU, Chomp dropped to UU with Scale Shot btw, several top threats have high base stats with good typings/stat distrubutions, Goltres and Mienshao are in UUBL, Ttar and Staraptor are in fucking RU, Honch is in PU next to Volbeat. If the council wants to unban Darkrai due to the massive power creep, so be it. Could we move on to other topics? The Darkrai discussion could be its own thing in a few weeks.



IMG_1414.jpeg
 
Darkrai is a sweeper and wallbreaker, not dedicated speed control. Iron Bundle can't match the power of Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Darkrai isn't reliant on 70% accurate water move for damage. Tera Poison Darkrai can 2hko virtually all dedicated walls, and is almost impossible to take down without revenge killing with priority (which applies to Iron Bundle too, btw)

Here are some calcs for

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 204-242 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO

Except, Darkrai can also flinch opponent with Dark Pulse. Which means that accounting for lower damage and poor accuracy, Bundle might fail to KO Blissey even after 5th move. While Darkai has potential to get close to 2hko range with just 1 flinch. And Blissey is the bulkiest neutral wall for Darkrai in the whole game (this is without accounting Tera for Darkrai)
Ok, but it needs life orb for these calcs to work. In the most hazard heavy metagame in history, lifeorb is the least viable It’s been in generations. Taking 30%+ from switching in and firing off one attack is not good, and will leave darkrai incredibly vulnerable to revenge killing. It also needs to be able to survive all of that chip and OHKO whatever is in front of it, because even though it has decent bulk for a sweeper, it is going to take a ton of chip with this set, and it can’t afford to switch out and take even more hazard damage later. Lifeorb darkrai honestly seems like it would actually be subpar in OU right now. Specs is better but insanely prediction reliant and can’t use NP. Boots is also better but Darkrai really misses having the immediate power, as dark pulse really needs to be boosted to become threatening.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
I don't think I need to add more to the whole Darkrai debate, but anyways there's no need to run any fancy sets with it (although they certainly make it even more broken), just go for Sub+Nasty Plot honestly. It destroys stall (Blissey gets 2HKOd by a Focus Blast at +2, they all run Tera Dark and they can't do shit to Darkrai anyways behind a Sub), it outspeeds all would-be revenge killers outside of Paradox mons running +1 Speed/Dragapult/Zamazenta, it resists Kingambit's Sucker Punch, it can flinch hax and it can always use Tera defensively to stay behind the Sub, considering its decent enough bulk.
 
Ok, but it needs life orb for these calcs to work. In the most hazard heavy metagame in history, lifeorb is the least viable It’s been in generations. Taking 30%+ from switching in and firing off one attack is not good, and will leave darkrai incredibly vulnerable to revenge killing. It also needs to be able to survive all of that chip and OHKO whatever is in front of it, because even though it has decent bulk for a sweeper, it is going to take a ton of chip with this set, and it can’t afford to switch out and take even more hazard damage later. Lifeorb darkrai honestly seems like it would actually be subpar in OU right now. Specs is better but insanely prediction reliant and can’t use NP. Boots is also better but Darkrai really misses having the immediate power, as dark pulse really needs to be boosted to become threatening.
Darkrai needs just 1 turn to sweep. Unlike Bundle, who's much weaker without Nasty Plot, Darkrai doesn't need to go in and out 100 times using flip turn. 1 Nasty Plot is more than good enough for the entire game, as there's no wall that can avoid 2hko (and the ones that do avoid 2hko, get flinched to death as they spam recover, or are too passive to threaten it anyway).
 
Greninja is a decent pokemon with a few options but its manageable. Having said that, my well prepared teams have probably lost 5 games in the past month singularly to a poorly timed dark pulse flinch (or 2 in a row). Dark pulse is a gross move. Any fast pokemon with a flinch move is gross. I'm not calling flinch broken Actually I am fuck flinch but slow defensive pokemon have something to fear when they switch in on darkrais nasty plot or sub, because theres no guarantee they'll move the next turn. or the turn after that. And if they do, theyll need to be doing more damage than darkrai can do to them.

And one point i havent seen mentioned, people call darkrais ability useless, but there is a gross synergy with amoongus spore, its gets regen on the way out and you deal 1/8th on the way in, negating the need to even run life orb for the extra damage.
 

Finchinator

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it's wild that we are seeing people clamoring for a quickban on gholdengo and an unban on genesect either in the same posts or within the same week in this thread

gholdengo is very much suspect worthy and deserves a deeper dive for sure, but genesect is a bonafide Uber with no place in OU that has only gotten better with more years under its belt and only proved itself to be more broken

this is some wild recency bias...
 
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